Hand Groupings in Poker Calculators

I was curious what all hand grouping schemes people used to rank and sort their hole cards and decide what to play. Please pick whichever of the following items you find the most relevant or use the most personally. I'm interested primarily in NL Holdem tournament and ring play.

Note: This is my first forum pool so hopefully it turns out correctly. If anyone has any suggestions, modifications, or expansions to the options let me know and I will make changes accordingly.

I have a sneaking suspicion that one of the problems this poll is going to face is that not enough people will know about modified sklansky groupings, let alone the difference from the original. .

There are other systems, but they all suck.

Then there is EV.... well, that all depends on who is playing the cards and what is the action before you and what are the stack sizes behind. Not really that much help.

I get the suspicion this poll is driven towards including the modified sklansky groups in TI as a user setting option. If that is the case, I would have thought that a better poll would be:

"Would you like Tournament Indicator to allow modified sklansky groups to be set as a user defined option?".

One vote for yes....

That was definitely the starting point for this question and poll. But I am also genuinely interested in whats being played and how much people use any / all of the various systems.

licked gut instinct but I need to clarify.

I have never ever used a hand ranking system ever in NL games. Yes I guess that I used Sun's Core set for FLNE, but that was for learning purposes.

In my own game, when learning NL SNG MTT etc, I never referred to any hand ranking systems. I think they are great to start off with for beginners, but after more and more and more experience, I find that I know what hands I can play EV+ from every position.

I probably haven't proved it through data samples and what not, but it is through experience that I know what hand is best played from where.

I clicked "other" because it is everything and nothing and I am always shifting and actually never thinking about hand grouping systems. I think about my opponent's range and that is the only thing that affects my range.
IMO hand groupings are important when you learn to game but once that is accomplished and you have a fair bit of experience they become completely unimportant.


What I meant by a modified Sklansky Grouping is that since Sklansky is far and away the most popular and most published hand grouping scheme but at the same time has limited scope as to the situations it was meant to cover and is applicable in, I have seen dozens of altered or rearranged Sklansky hand groupings (for example the one done by CMU, see link below, or any of the variations made from it) I figured that selection would cover any of the people that use a grouping system that closely resembles but is not the sklansky groupings.

Also I know that with time and experience any player will start to rely less and less on a formalized grouping system (whether that comes putting greater weight on intuition and other factors and/or unconsciously memorizing the groupings you started with), but I am one that thanks having a good core set similar to what Sun referenced is a good resource was curious what the rest of you thought and what's systems you started with and were currently bringing to bear in your table play. Thanks again for all the information and responses.

I chose other:
Mostly I use a combination of all the above. I originally used a printed chart for Sklansky, Modified Sklansky and MIT plus another chart I forget which now.

Then I used "my own" that was based on opponent VP and his range as to whether I call/raise/fold.

Then I switched to Tournament Indicator groupings.

Now, it's mostly ingrained my range and it changes based on the situation at hand. I may have A-rag suited oop middle and either raise/call/fold dependent on all the other factors in that given situation. There is always a base root to start with, solid abc. Top 10 hands early rounds, then adjust from there.

HUD explanation in poker software.

I've seen a few people talk about a "HUD" and I've seen on some of the videos the display that appears besides the players name showing specific player stats. So with that said here's a few questions:

1) I'm assuming HUD stands for "Head's Up Display".. Correct? What program provides the HUD?

2) Is said program free? And where can I get it?

3) Where can I go to learn what the stats mean? I know the jist of a a few, but would need to learn how to interpret and incorporate into my game.

4) Is it worth it at the microstakes?

5) Which pokersites is it compatible with? UB, FT, PS?

That's all I have for now, but I might come up with a few more. Thanks for the help.



The most common HuD is PokerAce HuD, this works in conjunction with PokerTracker(an amazing tool that keeps tracks of all your hands and lets you discover leaks etc)

PokerTracker is $55
Poker Ace HuD is $25

Pretty sure both of em have a free limited trial. HuD is 30days and only shows one table.

Both are compatible with most sites. Depends on the stakes and how serious you are about winning and learning to be better. Sometime think HuDs turn you into more of a robot and ruin reads on players, but truthfully at lower stakes you do want to play more tables. Higher stakes you will play less tables(usually) and get more reads etc.

PokerTracker is amazing tho and if you have the money and want to improve your game I would say start there, and then use the trial of poker aces HuD and see if you like that.

I use Poker Tracker currently, and will be buying pokeraces when I move up a bit and withdraw a little for it.

I figured that it was in conjuction with PokerTracker. And I currently have the freetrial right now. I believe it lets me import 1000 hands or something like that. I haven't really tinkered with it yet, but I will soon.

Anything on where I can go to read up on the terms used for the statistics? Such as VPIP, AF, or some other things I've seen?

EDIT: Oh and not just what each term means, but how to interpret it and use it to make better plays.

RealTime HUD is another free one, it makes its own database from the hand histories so you don't need PokerTracker. As of december it isn't being developed anymore, since the author has joined forces with HoldemManager to make the HUD part of HM. The program isn't finished yet so you can download a free beta version.

If I were you I'd go with one of those for the time being. In a few months there's going to be at least three new poker managing apps out (HM, PokerTracker 3, and one from the guy behind PokerEV), so might as well use a free one until then.

theres one called tournament indicator for SnG/MTT players... free 48 hr trial, but you have to deposit at one of their affiliated sites to unlock it, looks pretty good so far. Costs 8.95 in addition to making a deposit at a poker site ( all the big ones are included) AND play 900 hands at the site before it gets unlocked. Kind of a pain, but may be worth it.

Making long term poker odds calculations.

Profitability in poker depends on consistent and repetitive quality decisions. Often times, when in a hand that requires intricate odds calculations, you have to look at each individual situation in the long term perspective. That means taking a particular hand into account and stretching that exact situation into hundreds, even thousands of hands.

Professional players who rely on making money day-in and day-out understand this concept implicitly, and it used that knowledge to either get out of the hand or stay in it, sometimes right to the end. As a side benefit, this type of long-term odds knowledge is an excellent tool to avoid tilt, while keeping cool as weaker players make incredible suck outs or win despite poor odds.

What kind of odds do you have to understand in order to comprehend long-term odds profitability? Well, I'm not just referring here to win odds, nor just to pot odds, but there are other factors, which you can consider odds scenarios as well. For instance, what are the odds of my opponent calling his whole stack off if I make might not draw? How about this - what are the odds of one of the players behind me re-raising my call? What are the odds that they will re-raise all in? What are the odds if my opponent simply bet a draw, or bet on a hand with nothing at all?

As you can see, there are long-term odds that are rather simple to calculate, and there are long-term odds that can only be calculated in a theoretical sense. Those theoretical odds calculations can take years to become reasonably proficient at deciphering. If that's not concerning enough to you, then consider these types of theoretical poker odds decisions being made in a matter of seconds, facing some serious aggression from your opponents - for real money. If you have ever been in a no limit cash came lately, these types of scenarios are not just common, but expected.

One of the ways you can help yourself in understanding some of these long term odds scenarios, is to be using a poker calculator when playing online. When you can keep tabs on your opponent as to profiling factors such as aggression factor, went to showdown winning percentage, voluntarily putting money into the pot, and stack size, you are much more likely to be able to put together the whole story of what is really going on, and make informed - and usually profitable decisions.

What all poker players can agree on is that the more information you have about your opponents, the more likely you are to make the correct plays against them. As popular as poker calculators are these days, the majority of players still do not use them. If you multitable or multitask, you simply cannot outperform the tracking abilities of the poker calculator and you are not a winning all the pots you could be.

Full Tilt Suspends Poker tracker Accounts

I would rather tell people the truth that they can,and now it looks like will be suspended for using prohibited software on Full Tilt. I think there is a clear line, but some people are looking for ways to cross it.I do not want to see anyone's account suspended, it's sick, I'm all for the players here. With that said, I would NEVER recommend using prohibited software.

Almost anyone that visits 2+2 with any regularity would know that there are threads popping up daily about this very issue. Most people are ignoring the poker sites warnings. I never thought this was a good idea when our money is involved. The only way to make sure you are not breaking the rules,is to not find way to bend them. No software means just that, no.

Texas Holdem Rules

I was wondering about what the standards are when 2 (or more) players agree to check down a hand when a player in the hand is all-in. I always perceived it as a form of collusion when two players make openly make such an agreement before the action takes place. Am I correct? Or should I just let this thing go?

I'm by no means a poker rules expert, but I've always considered this to be a form of collusion. It definitely cheapens the game and is unfair to the third player that is all-in, in my opinion. I also believe it's against the official poker rules if I'm not mistaken, but don't quote me on that. I'd speak up about it, especially if I were involved in the hand.

This is correct - it is collusion WHEN there is an open agreement as you are describing. Most situations though involve more experienced players who know enough to keep their mouths shut and THEN check it down - which is perfectly legal, although always suspected.

Is TI miscounting OUTS as User claims?

I noticed something curious about Tournament Indicator, where I think the poker software miscounted my outs.

Let me give you the setup.

My hole cards: 6s As

The board: 3c 8s 9s 7d (we're on the Turn, with the River yet to come)

Outs as calculated by Tournament Indicator: 21 outs

(9 spades, 3 Tens, 3 Fives, 3 Sixes, 3 Aces)

The pot: $400

I'm on the cut-off, with 3 players in front of me, with me yet to act.

Okay.

Obviously, I have a Flush draw and an Open Straight draw.

What I don't understand is why does Tournament Indicator only count THREE of the tens and THREE of the fives as outs, rather than FOUR outs for each?

There are FOUR tens and FOUR fives remaining, since none of these cards are in my hand nor are they on the board.

I know, I know. I'm always worried about bugs in the software that could affect my long term profitability.

Is the software in error or are those "outs" being discounted for some reason. If they're being discounted, why?

As always, I appreciate any insight.
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Not to worry, TI is doing its job just fine. Here's how its broken down:

-9 spades - simple enough
-3 sixes/aces - obvious again
-3 tens/fives - non-spade cards for the straight

The key here is non-spade cards. TI is not making the mistake of double counting one card twice. In this case it has already counted the ten and five of spades as two of the nine spade outs. Therefore, it does not count it again as an out to the straight.

Avoid that double counting, it makes the pot odds seem better than they are!

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Oh, yes, of course!

How could I have MISSED that?!

LOL!

Clearly an example of me forgetting not to double count outs! Very Happy

Poker Bots Rule the World!!!

Should poker bots be allowed or not? Some players actually feel they are not as threatening as some make them out to be. In reality, poker is about really about playing the cards you are dealt and knowing who your opponents are, and what they are likely to do. You also have to be bright enough to pick a table that you feel you can beat, and avoid the ones you are not favored to win at. A REAL player may make a decision to play at a certain time when he feels his competitors are tired, or perhaps inebriated.

There is a difference between live players and bots that never succumb to human nature and fall weak because they are tired, angry, impatient or careless. A long stretch in a cash game or tournament can wear a human thin after 12 ro 14 hours. He will NOT be playing optimally then.

Therefore, playing against a BOT that you really think is a player, is clearly a disadvantage that becomes more and more evident as the session, game or poker tournament progresses.

It is really a form of cheating, and most of the poker sites agree, especially Poker Stars who are adamant about preventing such machinery. But cheating at cards has been around since well, games have been played. Like life, it finds a way.Now cheating is at a distance and with very little supervision. It's not like busting an old time card shark over the knuckles and sending him off to the next city.

Its likely Poker BOTS are here to stay, because there is simply an overwhelming demand for such things to fill the desire of greed in humans. Alas though it is not necessarily because of the superior playing ability that BOTS have, but more so because of the stamina and automation they represent.

Interpreting the Aggression Factor in Poker Calculators

The Aggression factor used in poker calculator software is a valuable profiling measurement that you can use to strategize against your opponent whether it be high or low. Aggression Factor, or AF, is a actually a ratio, not a percentage which describes the nature of a player's betting tendencies, and it’s important to know how the AF is actually determined and what it really means.

So let’s start here: The formula for determining AF = ((bets + raises) / calls ) . So an Aggression Factor of 1.0 implies that the person makes bets equal to the mount of times he calls, which is a relatively balanced and flexible marker.

In general, if you see an opponent’s AF dropping consistently below .75, you can surely consider him to be a passive player, but being too passive isn’t normally a good strategy in poker. An AF over 1.5 might be considered an aggressive player, but you still have to monitor this over a matter of time.

So what if an opponent has a relatively high aggression factor, like for example 2.5 or 3.5 and the person bets or raises post-flop? How are you supposed to know the person has the strength they represent with their bet or raise? This would be a much easier answer from someone with a passive aggression factor less than .75 because an opponent who has been checking/calling, and then suddenly bets/raises, is more than likely to actually have the strength they represent.

To clarify though, high aggression factor on your poker calculator only tells you that your opponent rarely calls, it doesn't tell you anything about how often he bets/raises. So you still are not going to "know" one way or another if he is strong. The frequency of certain aggressive traits indicates a range of hands and a style of play of your opponent. Since you still cannot determine if any one particular hand of his is strong, it will eventually come down to risk, probabilities, tournament stage and structure.

Playing against such a player often puts you in the difficult conundrum of re-raising or folding, and a lot of that depends on your counter strategy and plan of attack against him, and that it makes sense for your situation in the tournament and bankroll. You cannot guess what they have, but you can be reasonably assured of being ahead when you NEED to be ahead.

You can also use smaller re-raises on the flop and turn to further determine if your opponent actually has something. If he hasn’t given up on the hand, his hole card strength is presumably better than normal and has possibly gotten help from the board. However if your poker tournament strategy situation is critical, Red or Orange, getting it in against this type of player with one of your medium strength hands is an excellent strategy.

HUD debate for poker calculator software

The poker forum is a plcae for such debates, but in this one I really feel such softwrae features are better off with other products.

I know it won't happen, but I think it would be awesome it TI had a small HUD that, if nothing else, placed the opponents profile icon and MZone number (in the appropriate color) next to their name on the table. That's all. I'm not looking to have all the information up on the table, just those two key reference points and reminders.

This may not seem like a big deal, and sometimes it's not, but it would be nice to have a simple reminder up there while I play.

I still study the Tournament Indicator grid information regularly and I would not discount or disregard that information, but, especially when multi-tabling, it would be nice to have a little icon "at eye level" that quickly reminds me (or at least keeps me from making a stupid mistake) who I am playing against.

Anyways, I know it's just wishful thinking, and many of you will probably say it's not necessary (of course, it's not necessary) but it would prove helpful for me at least, so I thought I would throw it out there. : )

I hope this NEVER happens because it means screen-scraping technology rather than reading the chat box, a far more reliable option for poker assist software which is what TI, HI and now Omaha Indicator use. HUD means a very difficult and quirky prone update process whenever the poker sites change their software, limited resizing options, and monopolization of your monitor. You can always get quick, individual player stats by clicking on their name in the profile window. - a neat, clean, and superior functioning option.

First, one of the reasons I doubt something like this would ever happen is the instability issues that you mentioned. I agree that a HUD complicates this from a developers stand point. That said, I have used HUDs in both poker and a variety of other applications that go off without a hitch. It can be done well, it's just a matter of doing it well.

As far as monopolization of one's monitor, that sounds like a little bit of an overstatement as a tiny icon and a colored number are nothing compared to what some of these ridiculous HUDs try to do. I can't stand looking at all that number graffiti all over the place either. A HUD can still be neat and clean.

I can and do click on people's names to get information and that is helpful, but again, for me personally, this is not really any quicker or easier than just looking at the profile grid when you are multi-tabling.

Anyways, I was not so much pleading for a new feature as commenting on something that I believe would help me personally. It's just my two cents. For me, the only negative would be from a developer's standpoint (particularly as someone who is familiar with this side of things). Even though it could be done (and done well) it is a commitment on the part of the developer so I understand and don't expect such a feature to come about.

Anyways, to each their own and I still LOVE my TI. : )

Agreed. It is a separate program if you want to deal with the extra headaches... and they are there. One of the best facets of TI's appeal is its ease of use and quick updates.

I have tested and used many poker calculators with HUD displays and can firmly stand by such deficiencies mentioned above. Not as a matter of regular operation but of at least intermittent instability. If you still doubt that, you can check those programs own forums and feedback.

"As far as monopolization of one's monitor, that sounds like a little bit of an overstatement as a tiny icon and a colored number are nothing compared to what some of these ridiculous HUDs try to do. I can't stand looking at all that number graffiti all over the place either. A HUD can still be neat and clean."

The issue is NOT the space of HUD display, but the limitation in most of that type of poker software in resizing tables and table themes. The ones that have managed it to resize it are even more susceptible to crashing, screen jumps, and image freezing.

How are this guys poker calculator stats?

Poker Calculator Stats in the orange M zone.

a) vpip of 18%. That's 18% of hands dealt.
b) pfr% of 13%. That's 13% of hands dealt.
c) af of 3.8. I think I can figure that one out.
d) wsd% of 51%. That's 51% of 18%(vpip)
e) wsdw% of 84%. That's 84% of 51%(wsd%) of 18%(vpip)
f) won% of 18%. Thats 18% of ?

are a) through e) correct?
can someone fill in the blank in f) for me?

3) Except for the Green Mzone, my wsd% are all red. I assume red means suboptimal (is that a word?) Can someone explain the reasoning behind that?

4) Keeping in mind that I did a lot of low blind limping in position with crap to see 900 flops to unlock TI, what can I learn from my stats?

a) I don't play my Mzone correctly. My vpip doesn't go up as my M goes down. Correct?
b) My wsd% are all red but my wsd&won% are 85%,79%,84%,88% and 67%. What's up with that?

Any assistance would be appreciated. I've got a +ROI on 9 man SNG on Poker Stars: 14% over 1470 $1.20, 9.5% over 636 $3.40, 2.7% over 373 $5.50. Pacific this last week was 9% over 96 low BI STT. I give these stats to show what is possible for me playing super nitty first level thinking poker.

With TI, I can now start thinking past what I'm holding in my hand. I was going to cash out from Pacific once I unlocked Tournament Indicator, but I'm starting to get data on some semi-regs. It's a great feeling to sit down at a table and have stats on 2 or 3 of my opponents. Now I can start playing them instead of only my cards.

Odds calculation Q&A

Q: I'm trying to see if this makes sense:
You have AK. Flop is 852r. Opponent has JJ. You know this for sure.

There is $7.50 in the pot. He moves all in for $2.50. (Let's assume that AK has exactly a 25% chance of winning the pot on the flop if he's all in).

I have to call $2.50 to win $10, which is 25%. So if he moves all in for $3 I should fold?

Is that correct? Really I'm just trying to see if I understand pot odds properly, more than i care about debating calling or folding for other reasons.

___________________________________________

A: AK V JJ with a flop that eliminates all backdoor draws, basically simplifying it to 6 outs for the AK to win with the Jacks having 2 more jacks to eliminate any chance for the AK. I always use 45 as the range, so x/45 is the probability of hitting an out on each forthcoming street. Since you have 2 streets the chance to hit 6 outs is 6/45 + 6/44= 26.97% , given that you dont hit one the first street. There is the chance that they can hit a Jack and those odds are either 2/45 on the turn and 2/44 on the river, which only really matters if the AK were to hit on the turn since it doesnt affect anything really until AK improves.

This is how I would break it down:
-26.97 of the time AK improves and wins
-4.44% of the time a Jack will come on the turn and seal the deal so that the river doesnt affect anything if AK improves 13.63% of the time on the river
-Which breaks down in numbers to 6/44-2/45(6/44)= 13.02%
-4.54% of the time a Jack will come on the river if AK improves on the turn.
-Which breaks down in numbers to 6/45-2/44(6/45)= 12.73%
-Since you have 2 streets, each with outs on probability, you add the 2 chances together and come to a 25.75% chance of winning after a complete no drawing flop comes, of course in real simple terms, with real simple math and with no real other factors or variables in a perfect scenario, which cant be accomplished obviously.

The numbers most poker calculators gives is around 24%, slightly less than 3/1. Remember calling 2.50 to get 10 is actually 4/1, I think that may be where people get confused. So even calling 3 would be 3 for 10.50 or 3.5/1 to call, in either case making it mathematically correct to call.

I think my math is right, I don't have my Barry Greenstein book "Ace on the River" to reference my math against but oh well...

VPIP and PFR debate in Poker Calculators

Phaedrus, JP and Mattywein debate some new features that extrapolate deeper VPIP and aggression measurements in poker calculators.

I note your enthusiasm for this feature Matty. If I understand it correctly, you would like a 20 percent, or 30 percent hand range broken down into probable holdings and your hole cards matched up against say the average of that range.

Its a nice idea but I really think it will create too much techo reliance and lead to some pretty bad reads. For example the program would need to take into account position and action in front, Mzone probably ICM the looseness
, tightness and stack sizes of the players behind just to name a few variables. By the time you had reliable data with all these variables your opponent will most likely have died of old age.

Mostly I think of VPIP this way.

A sub 20 percent range is incredibly tight. The are playing big pairs and big cards and maybe most pocket pairs. The may play some suited connectors but not many. These guys are easy to read post flop and its great to be in pots with them because you won't lose much.

A 25 to 35 percent range is much more dangerous. These guys are playing quality cards with just enough suited connectors in the mix that any flop can help them.

Over 35 percent is still dangerous to play against. The individual player is playing too many hands and will most likely be a losing player over time. But they can have pretty much anything in their hand and so its very hard to read them correctly, particularly if they are also aggressive. Best approach is mostly to trap the before the flop or on the flop.

But notwithstanding all of that, you need to be mindful, especially in sit and go tournaments about what blind pressure is doing to players ranges. This is why this particular program feature would not be helpful to my game. Tight players know to loosen up when the pressure is on and their game will change dramatically

If you tracked me over a SnG you would find I am a rock or TAG at the start and a maniac at the end....virtually every tournament.

In an multi-table poker tournament online you will quite often track me as a maniac or calling station at the start and then Tag in the middle, maniac at the end. Or depending on stack sizes, maybe a rock at the end. Its all situation dependent.

A much more reliable read of peoples ranges is their stack size at the time. Small stack almost always = big range. Big stack can mean different things though.

One other observation is that I use Poker Office for my cash games at Pacific. The HU display put numbers all over the screen (quite distracting really) I can select which numbers I want to see from a massive list of indicators. But at the end of the day, VPIP, pre flop raise percentage, post flop aggression, went to showdown and win at showdown together tell a very accurate and complete story. I really don't care about how often someone steals blinds or how well they defend their blinds. Blinds are minuscule compared to stacks. I'd rather have the info that allows me to make the best decision for a 100 big blind bet than a poultry 1.5BBs

In tournaments blind steal and defense stats are also pretty meaningless. It all depends on the size of the blinds and the size of the stacks. most all players are thieves when under pressure and you soon learn how well the guys on your left defend without needing a calculator.

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I disagree with this. I think those stats are valuable and when reviewed in combination with other stats and the current situation can reveal a lot about the player and what they may be doing in that situation.

For just one example "defense", not sure what number you look at for that but I look at PFRR (pre flop re raise) AND combine it with pfrr-W$SD which means IF they pfrr then they W$SD If they don't win at showdown often when they pfrr then it tells me they pfrr too much and are more likely to defend with a weak hand so their re raise to me has a high probability of being a defensive re steal. Granted, EVERYTHING else about that hand, that player, the actions leading to that moment, stack sizes, the hands leading up to this etc... will ALL play a role in what happens and the decision making process. But stats, when used correctly, are a tremendous aid to a player in order to "play the player" when you can't simply play your cards. (how often they fold to steal bets in bb and sb are main defense stats but they don't play a part in this particular example unless they have high fold but this time are re raising and they have low re raise or hi win if pfrr. Then I fold)

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I hear what you are saying JP and agree with it at a theoretical level. The problem for me in practice is that there is a pretty small window in a tournament when blind steals and defense are either not a waste of time (ie. blinds are too small) or not pot committing (i.e blinds are so large any raise pot commits you and your opponents reaction is irrelevant).

I have had quite a few players tell me I am a blind thief at the table. When I tell them I have just had a run of good cards, several have then told me about my Poker Edge or Crusher stats. Apparently these must show I raise a lot from steal positions (which I do)

The problem is that this is not necessarily stealing, it is just correct position play. I play a wider range in late position and I typically open raise. But I almost always am playing solid hands for my position. So I really don't know whether that qualifies as stealing...to me is just seems more like pressurizing aggressive play

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Phaedrus I totally agree with you on this point, BUT

This statement sort of misses the point I was making. You are still relying on the 2 figures to make your judgment and you have to compensate due to other players inflection points and M values. The figure I'm after would give BEGINNERS a better understanding of where they would be in the hand and what the odds would be against the players range. You're still relying on a figure either way and making a judgment on that and all the other factors mentioned.

I do think this would be difficult to implement though, but only because a pro's 30% range would be a lot different to a beginners, Plus the math would probably be mind blowing. Confused Confused...

Using a new Poker Calculator for Omaha

As you can see, here, I limped in with what Omaha indicator calls a premium hand, with 27 Hutchison points. The reason why this is not a top 10 hand is because of that eight being a suit of its own, and really offering no strength at all for the low or a possible straight. So in this hand, I leave you really playing for the nut low, because I have two of the deuces, seriously reducing the likeliness of another player at the table also holding Ace deuce. So in that case, again, there's absolutely no reason to raise as you really want as many people in the pot with a hand like this as you can muster.

The flop is somewhat reasonable for me, although there are no diamonds I only need one card for the low end and as you can see in Omaha odds calculator indicator I have 20 low outs. One player bets 90, I call, one player folds, and another calls, making the pot 435 with three players left in the pot.

The turn brings to three of clubs, which gives me the nut low and a reasonable expectation that I will not be sharing it. When you are in the spotlight this against two opponents holding the nut low, you do not want to be pushing either of your opponents out of the pot, because they are likely splitting the high or at the least fighting for it. So to have them both continue contributing to the pot is your main objective, which is the only reason I simply called phantoms that of 360 chips. Unfortunately cubsfan did fold, leaving a pot of 1155 chips, for me and Phantom to fight over.

The river brings a jack of hearts filling out a flush and a possible straight. Phantom checks to me and I checked down as well. There are a lot of players here who would bet in my position, simply because they have the nut low and feel they have nothing to lose by adding more of the pot. That is a huge mistake in this situation because as you can see, I have no chance of winning the high side of this pot, and Phantom could possibly have a share in the low side of this pot, and me betting out here might just result in a reraise, so there is absolutely no point in adding to the pot at this stage.

As it turns out he was afraid of the flush as well, but his set of nines easily took the high side, and he wisely checked it to me after the river which critically devalued his high hand.

Poker Tracker 3 and Calculatem Pro

You may also find this of interest if you do like the program and would like to purchase it.

Poker Tracker

Basically people who have bought pokertracker2 and PA HUD will be getting a discount applied to their PT3 purchase. Although as far as I know they are planning on having the commercial release of PT3 somewhere around the end of this month. Keep in mind the release date has been changed a number of times now so that date may not be firm.

I purchased an odds calculating program a while back and from my own experience it was a waste of money. Calculatem Pro I think it cost around $100 and I used it for about a week before I ditched it. It does suggest what actions you might want to take, but as BNS has mentioned it is kind of bot like if you plan on doing exactly what it says. I also don't think it's suggestions are all that profitable...mind you it might be good in limit, I tried it out in NL which was probably a mistake in itself.

Poker Calculator for Omaha?

Sure it is a small market compared NL holdem, but with all the big pros like Gus Hansen and Phil Ivey playing omaha and omaha HL for hundreds of thousands of dollars most nights on Full Tilt, you would think that such a poker calculator would be successful.

It isn't like there haven't been attempts, but sadly they don't even rate good enough to well, rate. Mostly becuase you have to plug in your own numbers while the game is in play.... Yukkk.

But wait - word is that a new product from the makers of tournament indicator are on top of things again. A self reading, poker calculator designed specifically for Omaha and Omaha HL.... stay tuned - it should be good.

The Math of the Deal.

Several years ago, a computer engineering team (can't remember the exact school they were from) decided to beat the slot machines. They managed to shell out the cash to buy an old model that was still widely used in their state's casinos. They reverse engineered the source code, and found that the slot machine's programmers had poorly implemented a common random number generator: they intended to make it simpler to work with the slot machine's limited computational capabilities, but without that key piece of code, the RNG's output was almost completely predictable based on its last few outputs. The team made over a million dollars playing these machines before they were caught and tried.

It's a fascinating story, but I can't find it at the moment.

However, the points are this: 1) you'd need to know the exact RNG and shuffling algorithms used by the individual poker site, and 2) the algorithms would need to be very poorly implemented. There would be no 'catch-all' solution. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet a large amount of money that the majority of poker sites use hardware RNGs as the source of their random bits, against which this attack would be completely irrelevant.

There's also the fact that a decent, well-implemented RNG would never (again, by "never" I mean "never in the lifespan of the universe") shuffle a deck of cards the same way twice. There are 52! (52 factorial) ways to shuffle a deck of cards. That's roughly 8 followed by 67 zeroes. If you can beat odds of that number to one, you don't need to play poker. Just go ahead and win a few lotteries.

So the database these people are compiling is useless. (Assuming they are even compiling anything, and not just spitting out random answers.)


I asked about this topic on PokerEdge forums under "fuzzy math". I was told that FT runs a reshuffle after hole cards, then flop then each street therafter to defeat any possible reverse rng program from working. The main one advertised states that it will show at least one other players hole cards and 3 cards that will hit the board by the river. I asked if this reshuffling would effect winning odds ie 2-1 of completing 4 flush by river ect. I was told that since it's the same number of remaining cards, that the odds did not change. I asked this after having, as most of you probably have too, my allin flop bet on trips or flopped straight being beat by AXs sucking out a runner runner flush on me.

I've also been card dead (Sklansky group Cool for 30- 50 hands and saw one section of the table getting a high concentration of group 3 and above.
But those suck outs are beyond my control. ie, some donk calling my AA allin push with J4s and flushing me out. When I actually get ITM in a STT, I still place first more than anything else. (20 finishes ITM 11 wins)

The most advanced poker calculator yet....

Ok I think it would be quite advantageous to have this kind of skill at the poker table. This could be the most advanced poker calculator on earth!

At least I was favored!!

A few random hands where my poker calculator shows I am a huge favorite to win, but things just didn't work out.

TI Profile ebook.

There is a free ebook at SitandGoCertified.com that deals with the traditional profile grid as explained by Dr. Alan Schhonmaker AND the profile icons that Tournament Indicator use when it profiles your opponents at the table. I think it is useful to combine the two to show where those icons are actually situated on the grid, and why.

Even if you don't use Tournament Indicator, a lot of poker calculators use the same or similar profile icons so this ebook - which includes 4 videos btw - should prove useful nonetheless.

Poker Crusher sucks, or no?

Some forum members are debating about Poker Crusher and its accuracy:

You are using a "free lookup" and as such it is just a hodgepodge data collection. It is the SUM TOTAL of every game type, cash or tournament, any buy in level, full table or short table, no limit and fixed limit ALL added together then analyzed.

Raz is more uniform or narrow in game types, therefore his "analysis" is going to be a bit more accurate as there are fewer fringe numbers added in to skew the result.

Since you have a lot of FL games in there and you also have short table games in there, you have a larger portion of looser style play numbers added in to the sum total. You do not play the same starters short in FL as you do NL and your positions you play are also different. Likewise if you are short table and HU you play different. You may have vp of 50+ for straight HU play, 25-30 for 5 or 6 way play, 10 for early stages, etc...

That analysis rating is everything thrown together and not a good barometer. It's there to entice you to look deeper. Now if you strip things out and filter them properly...

I've edited and generalized so as not to put specifics out but:

Sun137 FT poker, Full table tourney play, NLHE, Shark, TAG.
VP-(removed exact number but it's under 20)
PFR (Again removed exact but it's under 12)
W$SD (Over 50% is all I'll say Very Happy )

JP's profile summary: Alpha-T - If he raises, reraises or goes all in preflop, fold unless you have AA-KK-QQ as he is more likely to win the hand if it goes to showdown historically. Laughing

Now this is ONLY for a tournament of no limit hold em and a full table of 7-9 players on full tilt only.

Now, if I add in ALL the data from the cash games FL and NL the numbers shift upwards in all cases but one which is a hair downward by comparison. So you see, it's not an accurate portrait of a player as there are too many unknowns in the the matrix. That website is useless for profiling, but the program is not as you can filter out exactly what you want.

Just like poker tracker, it's usless to know you played 224,899 hands, you have to sort it out with various criteria to make is useful to us. AA had it 180 times means nothing as it's just the sum total of how often you had it. But filter it and sort by position, amounts won, hands played etc... and it starts to take on meaning that we can do something with.

It can also vary from site to site! On stars, I am tighter than Sun, on FT Sun is Tighter than me yet we seem to have similar playing style as in a tight aggressive play for NLHE.

But it is entertaining to look at and if you play MOSTLY one type of game, the profile can be close.